Dainty western leaders and violence
People in the west who've gotten so riled up about the "violence" (of some-- actually, a very, very small proportion) of those Muslims who've been protesting against the Danish cartoons might do well to remember that very little, if any, of this violence has been directed at western persons. Nearly all of it that I have learned about has been directed against western property including "symbolic" property, like flags.
Indeed, the casualties related to these protests have not been among westerners. They have all been among Muslim individuals involved in the demonstrations:
- One (in Lebanon, at the weekend) was apparently of a demonstrator/?arsonist most likely asphyxiated by his own fire,
Four were of Afghan protesters shot dead by the US-backed Afghan security forces-- oops, scratch that, the latest total on the number killed by the US-backed forces in Afghanistan is eleven...
And in Kenya, police today shot and injured one person while trying to keep hundreds of protesters from marching to the residence of Denmark's ambassador. And one passerby was killed when he was hit by an ambulance rushing away the wounded protester.
Not yet...
And of course, I'm just holding my breath for our President to "take the lead" and announce that from here on out the United States will foreswear the use of violence in all its dealings with the world. Now that would be a fine thing to do.
Helena, the issue is even deeper than this. It lays the basis for accusing Moslems of being irrational and of Islam as a religion of terror. Anne Coulter, Bill Bennett, and others have been making hay of this on the TV airwaves.
Helena
If you couldn't see Juan Coles's blog today with its charming picture of the Vice President (you can turn it into wallpaper on your PC) you will have missed the delicious irony of Porter Goss Piece in the NYT titled "Loose Lips Sink Spies"
There is nothing wrong with Juan Cole. It is the best guffaw I have had for weeks.
The non lethality was because the Danes were long gone from their Arab embassies. The mob couldn't find a westerner, that is does not exonerate the mob. They even had to resort to attacking Austria's embassy! Anything goes.
The best place to find and kill westerners is in the West. That is why we had the WTC, Madrid, Bali, London, and whatever they are cooking next to defend the honor of a cartooned prophet...
You can spin their actions any way you want, including the uniting effect on Sunni-Shia. From here I see the uniting effect it is having on the West, and the Western perception of Islam's blind and violent hatred.
Well, Davis, you can count me and many other "westerners" out of any unification with a view of Islam's blind and violent hatred.
I wonder, do you know many Muslims? Have you ever spent much time in majority-Muslim countries? If the answer to both questions is "No", then I wonder how you get the information about Muslim societies on which you base this judgment?
Really, do tell us. I am always interested in processes of the large-scale demonization and dehumanization of others-- how they work, who buys into them, and why.
And tell us, too, how you feel about the possibility of being conscripted into a worldwide "clash of civilizations". Does that make you feel brave, chivalrous, righteous, upright, and good?
Or do you think, just maybe, there might be a better way to proceed?
Once again we hear dainty voices in the west saying "Eewwww! Look how violent those people of color are!" But have I heard GW Bush or anyone else expressing sorrow or condolence for the actual people who have suffered from the cartoon-related violence?
When the picture of GB senior tield with colour on the ground in the entrance of Baghdad Sheraton Hotel were all the visitors stepped upon, GWB went to slaughter a nation, destroying their state “ ! Look how violent those people of white skin are!”
Helena
"Really, do tell us. I am always interested in processes of the large-scale demonization and dehumanization of others-- how they work, who buys into them, and why."
You are of course aware of this recently published work which describes the process in minute and satisfying detail.
Frank, thanks for that-- looks v. interesting. No, I hadn't heard of it. I'll have to do some book-buying when I get to London in July...
Helena,
Unity is good. Having the nordic countries walk in our shoes for a couple of months can only help. No I never counted on you joining such unity. But look, you aren't that representative (decade long ties to Lebanon, a Lebanese ex-husband, and making a living as an anti-US activist).
The way to proceed may just be separation. If 200.000 moslems are so unhappy in Denmark maybe they should reside in the other half of the globe. There ain't 200.000 westerners in any moslem country normalized to Denmark's size.
Davis, what on earth do you mean by this childish and slanderous insult... making a living as an anti-US activist?
I'm perplexed why you come here to JWN to slag off against me in this way.
Also, what does my Lebanese ex-husband have to do with any of this? You seem like a cheap xenophobe.
Helena
How kind.
Will you be speaking at any meetings when you are in London?
I have been a Richard Evans fan ever since I read his Death in Hamburg, tracing the progress of a cholera epidemic and municipal governance.
About the lack of violence in the protests directed at Western individuals: I was quite stunned this morning to read Nate Abercromibie's account at Syria Comment of wandering around Damascus and mixing with the crowd that burned the Danish and Norweigan embassies, all without apparent concern for personal safety. In fact, people cheerfully asked him to take their pictures marching with their children in these crowds.
Reading this brought me back to "rioting" crowds I've seen and been a part of, for example after the Simi Valley jury let off the cops who beat Rodney King: most participants were a combination of angry and happy with themselves for making a showing in the streets. The atmosphere was pretty friendly to all, except when authorities were present making threats -- or charging. And this is not to say these were not destructive crowds.
This is a paradox that gets forgotten.
No offence meant Helena, my apologies. Just pointing out that your background does not represent the western masses or their lack of unity.
Your thesis of no physical harm has just been debunked by Denmark vacating Danes from multiple moslem lands:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/11/cartoon.protests/index.html
Just like your recent anti-American rant on the Pakistan operation is debunked by Musharraf himself:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4704436.stm
even Musharraf confirms the presence and accuracy of the hit.
" Pervez Musharraf also confirmed for the first time that Zawahiri had been expected to be at the house targeted by the US, a military spokesman says. President Musharraf added that another wanted militant was among five foreigners killed in the bombing. "
Davis, try to grow up. Try to become a mature, thoughtful and responsible adult.
You know, I disagree with Helena on this topic. But I try to discuss it with her politely and I never would insult her personally.
(Just a hint. We Germans take personal dignity and the protection of one´s personal life very seriously. Any politican who would try to copy the smear campaigns now surfacing in the USA would be politically dead in Germany. It just isn´t done. And I surely hope it stays this way!)
That said, Helena, I´m afraid I have to disagree.
The Danish cartoonists didn´t go into hiding (under police protection) on a whim. Likewise some European newspapers didn´t get police protection on a whim. And if I were a Dane somewhere in the Middle East, I would be worried about statements like "we will kidnap and punish any citizen of any country where any newspaper has published the cartoons".
The threat is real since in the past when such threats were made, in some cases people were murdered. So people just might have a point when they are afraid today? Your "dainty voices" didn´t exactly help some of the publishers or translators of Salman Rushdie´s book? Or in the "van Gogh" case?
Going back to your points:
One (in Lebanon, at the weekend) was apparently of a demonstrator/?arsonist most likely asphyxiated by his own fire,
I´m truly sorry. But did this "demonstrator/?arsonist" take into account that his fire might kill some other people too?
Four were of Afghan protesters shot dead by the US-backed Afghan security forces-- oops, scratch that, the latest total on the number killed by the US-backed forces in Afghanistan is eleven...
You know, this is strange. :)
I was against the Iraq war. Unfortunately the article you cited didn´t say anything about where and why any Afghan protesters were killed?
Ironic somehow if they were killed protesting Danish cartoons outside an US base?
And in Kenya, police today shot and injured one person while trying to keep hundreds of protesters from marching to the residence of Denmark's ambassador. And one passerby was killed when he was hit by an ambulance rushing away the wounded protester.
I don´t like seeing people killed.
However, it´s a secular rule that you don´t attack embassies. People hurt and killed while trying to attack an embassy are to be regretted but I wonder why you didn´t include the following sentence from the same article:
About 1,000 people protested outside Cairo's Al-Azhar Mosque, some chanting, "Osama bin Laden, explode Copenhagen," and burning a Danish flag." or Palestinians shouting "Bin Laden, strike again".
Look, maybe I´m just a simple guy.
What I would like to see is an instant and overwhelming Muslim response to any and all terrorist attacks alledgely in the name of Islam.
Demonstrations, police actions, denounciations by all Muslim imams and mullahs for example.
And I just don´t see it.
What I see is "well, we do regret the actions and the methods but we share some of the same goals."
And might I also add my personal POV?
I find it supremely ironic to see Muslim demonstrations in Syria about some Danish cartoons when the father of the current Syrian President killd approximately 20,000 Syrian citizens in Hama in February 1982. Muslim extremists trying to topple "him".
A turn to less daintyness?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4703076.stm
Why can't they just burn Hans Christian Anderson in effigy?
Davis, try to grow up. Try to become a mature, thoughtful and responsible adult.
You know, I disagree with Helena on this topic. But I try to discuss it with her politely and I never would insult her personally.
OK Detlef, I will try.
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